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WANT!

DON'T WANT.

The idea of Suda 51 going the way of Hideo Kojima makes me cringe, Kojima is a perfect exmaple for of why I think designers shouldn't listen to fans, a talented designer doing the same old thing is boring. Like the world needs more videogame sequels! The MGS series jumped the shark with MGS2 and despite flashes of brillance it has never recovered.

I don't want Suda 51 to do the same with No More Heroes, besides isn't the whole appeal of games like Killer 7 and No More Heroes is that they aren't like other games available. Sure NMH2 is a straight sequel but it was a unique case, of him wanting to help Marvelous out after they backed him. Whilst I've yet to play it, some of the US reviews suggest the decision to respond to some fan feedback and remove features some didn't like has meant it has lost some of its charm. Which just goes to show how you can listen to one set of fans but end up doing things that another set don't agree with...

There is no responsibility to the fans, much prefer if creative people made the games they wanted to make, and its not like Suda 51, Grasshopper and Marvelous are short of ideas, like that horror concept art he showed to EDGE some years back. We just need to buy more of them so they can sell better, and companies like Cing don't end up in debt.

PS. One of the things that bugs me about the industry as a whole is the way they assume if people buy games they want more of the same, that if you buy a game presumably you'd want a sequel. Personally my reason for buying games is to enjoy them on their own merits because the game and the people who made them are of interest to me. I couldn't care less about brands, fan service and canon storylines etc.

While I agree that more sequels could hurt NMH, I disagree with a few of your points:


There are 4 'real' MGS games. The first which is of course 'allowed'. The second you argue "jumps the shark" but only ever in terms of plot, the gameplay is solid. MGS3 was a fantastic game with a brilliant plot (not everyone liked the gameplay but it was done well and was at least different from other MGS games), and I can't comment on MGS4 but a lot of people seemed to like it. So my point is that MGS2 didn't jump the shark, partly because MGS4 makes sense of everything in MGS2, and that by flashes of brilliance you are referring to MGS3 and 4 which were both great games, and both the entirety of the rest of the series, so your comment about Hideo Kojima ruining MGS with sequels doesn't hold. If you don't like MGS2 then fair enough but as far as I'm concerned the series recovered instantly with MGS3 being great, and then continued with MGS4. At worst, you can argue that there was a small dip in how good the series was during MGS2.


Not true, these games stand up on the strength of their gameplay, the uniqueness is incidental. If Killer7 and NMH are truly good games, they should be able to be recognised as such even with lots of copycat or similar games on the market, much like God of War is renowned as the best hack and slash in a market full of clones.


Do you have quotes supporting this? I was under the impression he loved making the game, wanted to make a sequel, but wasn't sure if people would buy it. Then again I might have completely made that up in my own head, so I can't support what I say. Can you?


But if they'd ignored those fans they would have been upset. Either way not everyone can get what they want, that's just how things are, so it doesn't make sense to complain about that. People like different things, so whether or not Suda51 had listened to the fans, the outcome would be the same.


This argument really quite annoys me, if only because it suggests game developers should be inconsiderate jerks, only interested in creating their own vision, having contempt for those who like their work, and anger at those who don't. People like Suda51, the smaller but more recognised developers, often seem to be the nicest people, interested in making cool games for others to play. Interviewers frequently are amazed at how nice they are and all the cool things they'll do for the interviewer. I of course can't speak this for sure but as far as I know, Suda51 is a genuinely nice guy who makes games so people can enjoy them. If he can get feedback from them on how he can do a better job, or what they like and don't like, everyone wins. In a world where no creator has responsibility to their fans, there is a huge risk of the creator in question making steadily worse and worse games, because they are out of touch with what people want and enjoy, and that's what a game is about: enjoying yourself.


This doesn't make sense...you're suggesting that if a company makes something that people will buy, they shouldn't make more of it? That's terrible business sense. Sure it's not going to make for great innovation but making more of the kind of games people like and play is safe. The huge companies do this because they know it gets them the most money, and small developers like GHM, who've been going off slim sales from nifty and unique games, maybe it's nice for them to have a bit of breathing space fiscally with a franchise, something they know people will love if they make more of it, and which will get them more money overall.


If this is the case then you are not Human. Psychological research has shown that brands play a huge part in our decision on anything, much more than we personally think they do, and we are as gullible as everyone else, you aren't special in this regard. Take Contact. That was a great game, but why did I buy it? Because it has the names Suda51, GHM, and Rising Star on the box. Why did I buy the MGS games that I have? Because everyone said they were really good. It is not just me, and it is also you, no matter how resistant you think you are to public opinion. As far as fan service goes, I love fan service! Forget the anime-related connotations and think for a minute. Protoman in megaman 9 and 10? He doesn't need to be there, he's fan service. Playing as Curly Brace in Cave Story Wiiware? That's fan service. Metroid Fusion's suit in Metroid Prime? That's fan service. Fan service can be bad and mess up a well made thing, but it can also be a great thing that adds to the game's appeal and experience. Don't dismiss fan service just because you think you're "better" than people who actually like the game and know what would have made them enjoy it more. As far as canon storylines go, I don't actually have any idea what you're talking about, but I'd love to hear.

Also it's "Do not want", not "Don't want".

Lost my post just now, not using a document to type (please excuse any mistakes) unable to repeat it all so I'll keep it short. In hindsight I admit my post had a bit too strong, wasn't aimed at you cybercotlet, had a slight Incredible Hulk moment at the prospect of making sequels on order, allbeit premature with NMH2 out in America, and appearing to have initially to have underperformed in January.

Part of my reasoning is the comparism with Hideo Kojima, who stated publicly on numerous occasions he wanted to end the series. In an interviews (EDGE issue in 2006 I think) there's talk of being badgered by fans, even claiming to have received death threats, and not to mention publisher pressure from Konami, who desperately need the series to continue if their figures for last year compared with 2008 are anything to go by.

Good post flameofdoubt, though I could do without certain remarks. I'm human thanks and in no way consider myself better or superior, sure we're influenced by brands out of necessity, not humanly possible to know everything behind say our food or whatnot but we have choice outside of that hope we can have a decent debate here whilst we wait for NMH2 to arrive. I actually had a great quote on an earlier use of the word pretentious, not being able to be an expert on many things but trying to make your way, will try to find it again.

Fan service strikes me as pandering, the idea of a series isn't quite the same, having a core style brought together into a satisfying whole, then develop ideas and create variations on them is one thing, feeling obliged to make connections, canon* isn't my sort of thing.

Which is why I take issue with this talk of responsibility to the fans. I would think that responsibility lies with colleagues, contemporaries, financial backers, patrons, publishers and shareholders, but not with the consumer. Our relationship is ideally based on mutual interest and respect for one another, including the creative choices of the designers, directors, musicians and so forth.

From an outsider perspective, but having seen articles about key execuvies cutting their pay, and Cing going bankrupt reckon Marvelous could do with a pillar series, with which to build a solid footing, and help it continue to support other original ideas. But I'd rather let them decide when the best moment is to do that, and lets hope they can still pursue these other ideas they have already expressed an interest in doing, the interview about the sequel I was drawing upon, how they were confident of NMH selling well and wanting to do a follow up was from Eurogamer:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/suda-51-interview

Still insist that MGS2 jumped the shark though and the series never fully recoeved and not just down to the plot. I recommend you play MGS4 if you're a fan but I personally found it had potential but was incoherant and scatty in terms of narrative and gameplay.

(Forgot to address the uniqueness aspect, had something written but will come back and talk about that once I remember my line of thought).

*By canon I mean having things tie together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

Kinda like Other M being fitted into the 'official' Metroid story, or how you have spin offs and like you said 'genuine' MGS games. The possibilities might excite some but I often find it doesn't work for me, and perhaps breaks my suspension of disbelief. Going back and trying to make it seem as if things were thought ahead, something Kojima admits he did with MGS4 and had to make those connections (and my experience of the game it shows).

I want No More Heroes 3 to be more like part 1, I want that city back in the game dammit!

I don't care for the way they completely cut out Santa Destroy in Desperate Struggle, but the bosses were awesome, so I DO want another game, if it is more like the first game.

NMH3 update:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... ?id=241785

Keep those fingers crossed kids. We all want it to happen.

Let's hope it comes out soon ^^

Probably not until the next gen consoles get released.

I'd like to see it in ps3

Sorry about that verticalstand, I got a bit carried away there with what I thought was righteous anger, so you're right to call me out.

(And now, pretending that a 3rd will be made on this generation's cycle for convenience:)

Personally ivanff12 I'd rather it wasn't on the ps3. I wouldn't have a problem with it being on other consoles from the wii or being on the ps3 per se, just that due to the graphical capabilities demanded on the ps3 (or xbox360) it might be necessary to make a whole separate version to on the wii, and this could lead to two things. A: the wii version might be scrapped, and B: having to put a lot of effort into making the game look good might mean not as much effort can be put into making it actually be good.

I think how the first version happened works because when it comes to making it on the 360 and ps3 they already have the full game, they can spend their entire time making it look nice and not worrying about any of the content or design.

I'm not at all knowledgeable about industry practices though so my worry of it not being on the wii or effort normally being put into the game being lost on graphics may be irrelevant and unfounded.